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Jo Faulkner Transcript of interview by Ina Bertrand 4th January, 2001 - tape 1 (1 hr. 4 mins. 30 sec)
Jo Faulkner interviewed at Oak Park, 4th January, 2001. Ok, so can you start out telling me a little bit about your early life. I was born in Mackay, in North Queensland, in 1930. I am an only child. I had no relatives or met no-one till I joined the navy and I was in my twenties. So where did you go to school? I went to school at Victoria Park State School and then to the intermediate in grade - that was Grade 6 and 7 - when we sat for either the intermediate or the scholarship which entitled us to entry to the high school which was Mackay High School. Uha. And from there I went to work. How old were you when you went to work? Not quite 16, after finishing my, what was known as junior, and I also went to night school and studied accountancy. Right, so what was your first job? I worked for an accountant by the name of Douglas Gibbin-Lewis. And later I left there and went to work for Queensland Batteries. I also worked for McLinnons, in the office of their cordial factory. I went back to Queensland Batteries and took a job in their offices in Toowoomba. That was in late 1950. So all of this was office work? All, it was all office work. So you had quite a lot of experience and some education as well in accountancy before you even went into the navy? Yes. So what made you go into the navy? Well, my friend and I had been on holidays and we knew the Korean war had started. We had been to, through New South Wales, down through Victoria to Melbourne and back and we travelled by train in those days. Flying wasn't as convenient and we stopped and had a … yes, we arrived in Brisbane in the morning and the train to north didn't leave till the evening, so we decided to go to the recruiting office in Brisbane which, I think in those days, was near the Botanical Gardens and we asked about … if the services were to be recommenced for women and if so, could we put our names down. They took our names and we went home merrily. Well, while I was in … I left Toowomba and was working in Brisbane I received my papers. Right, but that still doesn't answer my question. Why? Yes why, what made you want to do it? Well, we decided there was going to be a war, we were going to be in the services, we weren't going to be waited to be called up. As some of the women … Did you really think some of the women would have been called up? Oh yes, if there was … well, they did during the war. If there was going to be a war, why wouldn't it? And we decided we would choose the service we wanted to be in because we knew 2 girls, in fact our friends sisters, a Joan Menny and a Joan Oswald, had served in the RANS during the war and we decided, well anybody could be in the army or the Air Force, but we were going to try for the navy. Right, what appealed to you about the navy? em … I don't really know that there was any appeal. I think it was just that it was different. I knew about the army because my father and his family had all been army, way, way back. He came from England with 2 brothers, also were here and they joined the Australian army during the First World War, but I knew that they had been associated with army people. More years than I would like to remember. Now, were your parents pleased when you joined the navy? Not particularly, if it had been the army it would have been alright, but did I have to join the navy. It was a standing joke because being quite close to the islands along the Barrier Reef, we would go across to Brampton Island for holidays and I always got seasick, so that was the greatest family joke. I don't know there was any appeal, maybe it was that we had read so much about and being next to the sea, we were a sea town, it was … or city as it is today and had been associated with the sea. Maybe that was something that appealed to me. What about the Korean War? How much did you know about that? Were you following this in the papers a lot? Em … we were … it had hardly started and yes, we were, well the newsreels at the theatres always before a movie there would be a newsreel and things like that. There wasn't a great deal told about it and I think that this is one thing that we possibly were … made us feel we wanted to go. Ok, so you signed up? Yes. Where did you actually sign up? I filled in my papers, by that time I was working in Brisbane for … I was with … working with a lawyer and I filled out the papers and sent them. later I had received a letter advising me to attend for an interview and when I got there there were about 20 odd girls in this room and we were interviewed by the then Chief of RAN, Blair Bowden and Petty Officer Eve Eckett. And we were told we would hear later and out of that room the only other girl that I ever met was a Vi McDonald who was a stewardess and we later did receive our call-up papers. And do you think that the interview process was quite strict then? Oh, it was strict. Very selective? Yes, it was. When I received my call-up papers I attended the recruiting office and there were 2 other girls there - a Lorna Smith and a Margaret Mee who had been war time RANS and the 3 of us actually did our signing up, we had a medical and that type of thing. You mean World War II? They had been RANS in World War II? World War II. Yes, they had been RANS in World War II and we did our medical and signed … took the oath and swore our allegiance to the King then, George VI, and em we had our papers, we had to report to the RTO and had our (??8.5) tickets, we accepted on a certain date and we then travelled by train through to Sydney, had the day in Sydney, then we travelled on the Spirit of Progress to Melbourne. And we were met there by a Joy Laidlaw - also had also been in the wartime RANS and who knew my 2 travelling companions and we were met later for lunch by Eve Eckett. She was Petty Officer Eve Eckett in those days. Later became Third Officer and she put us on the train to Crib Point where we were met by a truck and we were greeted with "you'll be sorry" as we drove in. Who said that, the drivers? The drivers and at the Master At Arms Office as you came on board, the patrolmen sort of let us know that we were in the navy now, we might regret it. Describe Crib Point facilities for me. We drove through big gates at which were 2 figureheads of course of old wooden ships and you drove a distance to the Master At Arms Office and from there it was quite … made roads, buildings which turned … we learned later were like the music school, education school, writers' office, the supply school it was called for writers and stores assistants, past the gunnery office and the gunnery school, vitalling store, there was a very big covered in parade ground. There was also a railway line, which intrigued me, till my first leave, then you had the administration block, and so we went down through the different … and they were made roads, but past the engine. It was quite like a little town. Right. And … Were there any ships? No, no. It was … … entirely a shore facility? It … yes, although it did have a bay, it was on Westernport Bay and ships did come in. Corvettes came in in the time of the national servicemen to pick up them to do their training. Now you used the word writers there and that has a very specific meaning doesn't it? Writers, yeah, is strictly office work. We were later divided into groups. There was writers G which was general or if you were a shorthand typist, ST for stenographers and then there were the pay who did the accounts and pay. No all those groups were called writers? Writers, but that was only in the RANS (??11.8) the men were strictly writers, but the RANS were either, as I say, we went in as writers, but later they divided us into groups and well, it was just too bad if you were doing a (?? 12.00) job, well you just struck court as a writer G. Where did you live while you were working there? We lived in what were called huts. We had … it was the RANERY, it was … had boundaries and a terminal I assume. The RANERY is an affectionate term? No, that was the official term. This official term? The RANERY, yes. And it had boundaries which were brushwood fences. On one boundary was the wardroom and our mess was not within that boundary, or our rec. room, where we had a canteen and … That was patrolled. Actually when we first went in at the top of the … I cant think of the name of the roads, there used to be a sentry, so that he didn't catch anybody and the boys going to the em … em … oh, the engine room - engineers, stokers, now, I cant think. Never mind, go on. They were … they had to be duty men to go there. No one was allowed after a certain time past there. Did people take is seriously or did they just get (??13.5) over the fence if they felt like it? Eh, no, some fool set the brushwood fence alight once and .. another time someone had purloined the underwear from our lines and when the Duty Officer at 8 o'clock in the morning went to raise colours with the Flag Party, there was RAN's underwear flying from his flagpole, which I don't think was very greatly appreciated. Was anyone caught? We never ever heard. And, oh yes, they did try and … try the different things. When we first went to the … were first down we attended the cinema - we had our own movies - the girls used to fall in and we used to be marched to the drill hall where it was held and if you were meeting a boy there, well you met him, but afterwards you had to fall out and march home. But that was later and you were allowed to walk home, but the Duty Officer would come along with the torch and say, "time now, time now, in girls." So that was that. Do you think that was simply in order to maintain discipline or was it really trying to look after you? Both, both. I think it was both. Looking after us, treating us as they hoped our parents would want us to be looked after. They considered us rather fragile property in those days. If you wanted a visitor at the recreation hut, you had a chit you had filled out by the officer and you would put the chit in in the regulating office and that would be signed and he would have that chit to attend. We used to have dances and the boys would be invited. Usually held in the mess hall. The rec. hut was divided into 2 where we could have those girls who didn't have visitors could still read or do what they wanted to. We had a wartime lady by the name of Wanda Lullum who was a New Zealander, and she had gone to England and when she arrived there she discovered that she had no money, that the Depression had hit her family in New Zealand and they were bankrupt so she had rather an interesting life to talk about. She joined the English army and was in signals and she was one of the first women through with the men into Germany, so she had some very interesting tales and yes … So you used to gather in the rec. hut and just talk? We would talk, yes, it was, yes, very interesting. You said you had a canteen, was that in the rec. hut? That was off the verandah of the rec. hut, yes, and we didn't have a sick bay to start with and it was a terrible winter, our first winter there. Made us think a little bit about maybe career when we had the terrible hailstorm and it was bitterly cold and we only had girls … sickberth attendants, the SBA's, who were training and we developed a very bad cold. Well, I was fortunate, I didn't, but a lot of them did and we called it "Crib Point Croup" and the medication was linctus and aspirin and you lined up for your linctus and your aspirin and that was it. But later on we had our own sick bay and Sister Davies, who was a civilian, and she later formed the Royal Australian Naval Service and headed that, but that was like a … em … the A nursing service? Yes, a nursing service, and there had been one during the War and this was the reinsurgence of it, yes. Was there a medical facility on the base? Yes, there was a hospital and doctors and a dental hos … . dental clinic too, which were all staffed by qualified people and male SBA's, but we had our own (??18.1). There was also … they trained the young cadets that were … midshipmen and they had The Royal Australian Naval College there in those days. Later, much later, the RANERY, as I know it, the huts and that, were disposed of and the girls were transferred to the RANC, which had much better accommodation of course. Our huts were divided, mostly you had a single hut. Hut 1 was for the higher ranks such as leading hands, petty officers, and watchkeepers. Watchkeepers were like cooks, stewardesses, the regulators, people who kept unusual hours. Hut 2, those rooms had doors, or cabins as we called them and Hut 2 had … you had your single room, but without a door. Hut 1 was the one with doors? Yes. Hut 3, you had double bunks and you shared a cabin and that didn't have doors or … so, you know, and that was a bit congested. And later on … that was when I first joined, then later on we had huts, 4, 5 and I think 6, then there was the sick bay. When you came into the RANERY you had to the left was the regulating office, and the right was the officers' quarters and there was a covered in gangway or companionway that went down the full length. Right were the huts, to the left were the ablution blocks and those were your showers, toilets, a bath - there was a bath - and washbasins. And in the early stages we, during what was known as the "dog watches" - that is the 4 to 6 - 2 watches 4 - 6 and 6 - 8 "dog watches", the 2. Yes. 2 watches of only 2 hours each. We had to clean those ablution blocks, so that brought you all back to a definite level. It didn't matter whether you were a doctor's daughter or if you had held a high position - as my friend had been secretary to a general manager - we all had to get in and scrub and when you have to clean the toilets after somebody else, well it makes you very much down to the level of 1 person and I think that was a very good discipline really. Did you eat only with … only with the women or … ? Oh yes ate, we had our own mess. In the early days we had to walk across from the living quarters, the huts, to the mess. We didn't have, it was a very wet winter, the first winter, and very cold, and we didn't have any covering, so you wore a hat and your burberry, which was your overcoat. Didn't make it for very pleasant, but anyhow, you were glad to eat, you were very hungry. In the early days we had the same menu as the men which really wasn't suited for women and a lot of us put on a great deal of weight, but that was … soon our First Officer, Des Payne , who had been one of the first of what was known as "Mrs McKenzie's team" and they were the first women during the First World … eh Second World War … who went to Harmon to prove that they would make suitable people to serve, and they were the first … .. Harmon, explain Harmon. Harmon is the … or was the wireless (??22.2) outside Canberra, between Canberra and Queanbeyan and that was where the centre of all … em signalling came through. Can you describe what a typical day would be like from when you get up till when you go to bed? Yes, from … the Duty Quartermaster would pipe on the public address system, and this was situated at the Master At Arms office. He would pipe through at 6 o'clock in the morning, Wakey Wakey Rise Up and Shine. We had a little ditty on that which was set to Beautiful Dreamer, but that is another story. Then 7 o'clock was breakfast so you had time to get up and have a shower, or whatever your ablutions and go to breakfast. You … at 8 o'clock you either fell in for … if you were a recruit you would be falling in for training, we used to fall in at 8 o'clock and march to our work. When … I was the first RAN writer to become what was called Ships Company. People who, other than recruits, who worked at the Depot were Ships Company and we had … just had a couple of Stores Assistant and so we used to walk, but as the numbers, girls replaced the men, which was really the idea of the women joining, it wasn't thought to look very tidy with us waddling off in … hey … direction, so we used to have to march to work and then at dinner time, that would be 8 o'clock, we would work through till 12, we would fall in again on a main road and outside Captain Ess's office, who is Captain Supply, and we would then march back for lunch. But at lunchtime we usually used to sneak back and work till 4 o'clock. But sometimes if you had work and you were keen, you finished … you stayed on and finished that work and your time between 4 and 6 was your own to do washing or whatever - you write your letters or talk, do whatever you like. Canteen - I was trying to think the hours that canteen - and I think it was after - it might have been open for a few hours then, but, you know, in the evening it was open for about an hour possibly. But at 6 o'clock was the evening meal and then your evenings were free, you did as you wished. On the base still though? Oh yes, oh in the RANERY still, not, if you went to the pictures, as I said before you . … and that. We had other entertainment. They had dances, but then they weren't too well … we weren't well appreciated by some of the girls that they used to bring … bused down with. And people could come from Frankston and possibly they came from further afield. They trained down at Frankston, got the bus to attend the dances there. The boys had their girlfriends from Melbourne and that would come down, but eh … the guests on the depot we will call them, didn't really like the RANS. I think they thought we were taking the men away from them. Competition! A little bit of competition. You … when they were building the Protestant Chapel - there was already a Roman Catholic Chapel there - and they were building - raising money. We had Tombala nights, which was illegal, but these were made legal. They were approved by the Commodore who was the head of the depot, and so we could hold them. And Tombala was only what you would call Bingo today. Then they had a concert in which some of the RANS took part in to raise money. It was all … we did have our entertainment. We had Friday afternoons was divisions, every Friday when everybody attended - unless you were duty watch or … you would have to dress in your best uniform. I should explain the uniform. Our everyday uniform was a navy blue skirt, a blue drill shirt and a navy blue cardigan with Lyle stockings, cotton stockings. We didn't think too much of them, but we appreciated them in the cold winters. Your (?? 26.5) called your eights. Your "walking out" or number 1 uniform was a navy blue jacket and skirt with a white tie … eh white shirt and a navy blue tie and, of course, we had our caps. Not quite like the caps of the men. Much softer and not like the girls wear today. That is a winter uniform? That was just number 1 winter. Summer uniform was a white dress with white shoes and we had silk stockings, but later they brought in black nylon which we thought we were just made to wear … to wear with our number ones. This is still stockings with seams up the back? Seams up the back, yes, seams up the back and you had to have them straight. You were inspected before. What about your underwear? Did you have distribution underwear? Had your own, no, no, we had our own, we were lucky, we had our own underwear for that. We had a boiler suit, navy blue drill overalls for any particular dirty jobs, if you, you know … they were … Like cleaning the … … the ablutions … ..the ablutions block. Yes, yes, or if you had been naughty and you were … had been on a charge and had to do some form of punishment. Sometimes you had to bear them for whatever was … you might have got scrubbing something or pick up things. Were there any civilians working on the base? Yes, there were civilians There was … when I first went the Commodore' Secretary was a civilian, but she was leaving to be married and she was replaced by a RAN. There were civilians in the tailor's shop, we had like a little … we had a post office and a dry cleaners. And they were all run by civilians. Em … and that was situated behind the men's service, men's blocks, that is their living quarters and you know, you could go up there, but many of us didn't bother. If somebody else could get it for you, well all the better. And there was a bank there too. So you were right, it was like a little town, very self-contained. Very self-contained, yes, very self-contained. We haven't talked about your training. Was this where you did your training? Yes, this was … that was the training base for all the navy. And what was your training? Our training? I … only 6 of us in my … I didn't have a class … usually they were brought in in groups of maybe 20 girls or more, so they … but we were only a group of 6. There were the 3 of us from Brisbane, 1 girl from Sydney and 2 others. Was this because you were very early? No, it wasn't, we were specially brought in. They wanted us … as we discovered later … we did our initial training which was more or less orientating. Learning how to march, learning the different … who you saluted and who you didn't. The different ratings or the different … Navy terminology? Yes, language, what was used. All sorts of things. Fire drill. They had their own fire department. How long was that orientation period? I am trying to think. I think it was about a fortnight, it might have been a little bit longer. It might have been ... I don't think it was 6 weeks, but it may have been. And then you went into a specialist training? If the officers decided you were suitable. Because although you did that training you could be told, I am sorry, we do not want you, you wont be suitable. Em … and the 2 other girls, they were told this. That they weren't … that they wouldn't be suitable. And then, ah yes, after the recruit training you went to your specialist training school, whether you were a telegraphist, a stewardess, a stores assistant, cook. We had a male PO cook in the mess and the recruit men cooks were under training under him, but they also had to go to the cooks' school and the writers' school, or … So you went to the writer's school? Yes, we … well, went to what was called the supply school because they trained all … educated us in the ways of the supplies assistants and the writers and we were taught terminology, how the ledgers were kept, pay records were kept, correct way to even address letters to different people. Well you had a lot of experience before you went there, this is just a way of making sure you do it the navy way? That is right, yes, yes, well some people had never worked in an office or had done the work even, you had to keep the stock in the stores, or how to order, that type of thing, yes. Telegraphists, how to use the teleprinter. So when you finished your training, where did you go then? Well then I was drafted because I was not a Melbourne citizen. The girls who were, what we call Melbourne Residents, they usually went to navy office, but as I wasn't , I was posted to the depot, to Cerberus, and I was sent to Captain's office in the administration block. So where did you live then? I still lived in the RAN. Although you worked at the depot, you still lived in the RAN. And then, how often did you get leave? Every second week. There were 2 watches, I think.it was red and blue they were and every second week you had leave. Can you describe to me the first time you took your leave in Melbourne? Yes, we … after divisions on a Friday when we had our march past - the Commodore took it or the Captain, we had to … there would be a pipe which called … when you returned to your … the boys to the blocks and the girls to the RANERY, there would be a pipe. Liberty men assemble … or something to that … anyhow, liberty men fall in and we had to fall in in the covered in parade ground and the train would be … there used to be a special leave train in and that would be there and we would fall in and be inspected and allowed on board and the RANS used to be locked in the carriages. Inspected, so you went on leave in fully dressed uniform? In fully dressed uniform, yes, and you had to, you know, be sure that you … the liberty men, you were in the right watch or, if you had got special commission, you had applied to the officer for special leave or something, you had all this, this was alright. Then you were chugged off into Melbourne. They stopped … I think they used to stop at Frankston, Mordialloc, Caulfield, to let people that lived near those suburbs … and then on to Flinders Street where we were disgorged and were out to have a wonderful weekend and feeling very, very prouder now, not exactly well fitting uniforms, but we had adjusted them to make them fit us and these were left overs from the war most of our uniforms. Right. We strolled out and eh .. there were the … what the naval term was "harpies", that was the prostitutes were waiting for the boys and we got some very dirty looks and some nasty remarks. My friend and I had been booked into The Grail, which was a hostel, run by the Roman Catholic Church. The … because a lot of us were new to Melbourne, the officers would book us in. We didn't like … or we soon learned our way about and what hotels to stop at which would give you a good cheap rate and sometimes you were asked to some of the girls homes that were living in Melbourne. But on this first occasion, well that was a bit of a shock, so we trundled across through … when the lights to the tram stop opposite St Pauls and we were waiting there for the tram because The Grail was in Hawthorn and we had to catch a tram. We had been given instructions on what tram, etc. and we were staying there and this woman came up and spat at us and mumbled something and then walked away. So I am afraid our first leave, we were rather surp rised. In shock. Yes, instead of feeling very proud, we learned what … em, that not all the public thought we were just smart and wonderful. And how did you spend your leave? Well, we went shopping, or we went to the movies, or we saw a show. Had met sometimes with girls for our lunch and things like that, to have lunch or dinner, because there weren't many restaurants, as there are today. Or society, we usually went to a hotel and had dinner, something like that. Then we would catch … either catch a train home, we could get a train to Frankston and then a bus back on a Sunday afternoon or else you caught the Liberty Train which left, I think it was about 6.00 - it might have been 6.30, from Princes Bridge Station and that meant getting up very early and getting there. Ok, well that has covered, I think, most of the ordinary sort of things. But what about the special occasions? What about, for instance, describe Trafalgar Day. Trafalgar Day was … the navy honoured the death of Nelson with a special demonstration of activities in Como Park. And this was open to the public? And this was open to the public and this was party of what was called 'Navy Week' which … and one particular time at which the RANS took part in, we had to do precision marching and we formed an anchor and, I think RANS, but it was … we all felt like criminals because we had to practise for many weeks to do this. It was specially trained … and we were given numbers, and thinking about it, it was fairly well organised when you think you have to organise maybe 60 people to do … you realise the complications that can cause by how many steps you take, and they had to be a certain length, and that was part of our recruit training. We learned to march to timing to take that required length of step, but we had these great big cardboard signs with our numbers on strung around our necks. And we all thought we were rather like a lot of criminals, but anyhow, it was very (??36.4) wonderful day. The girls who were training to be telegraphists, they were in signalling, and they signalled Nelson's last message which was "Father Great" We did this in our number 1 uniforms which of course was the navy blue with the white shirt and tie., yes. Did you do this every year or was this just one special occasion? This was the one special occasion I can remember. There was possibly other times, but that was one particular time because it was the first one that was ever done. What about when … in the royal visit in 1953? In 1953 a certain number were selected and we were sent to ""HMAS Harmon outside Canberra, between Canberra and Queanbeyan and we were joined by some of the (??37.2) who were there , and we were marched by the GI's, the Gunnery Introductors, and they marched us through, round the roads, round Canberra till we … for quite some time … getting us to … in exact precision. On the actual day the Queen opened Parliament, we were assembled on the lawns outside. Now this is old Government House and all the services were there and … in the big parade … and then we … the Queen with Prince Phillip took the salute and we all marched by. And of course we were told we were actually very special because the Prince had been navy, and was still navy. You obviously found that a very moving occasion. It was a very moving occasion, yes. We were, as I say, very proud. But it poured rain and white caps, which had been … we were in summer uniform, our white dresses, white shoes, white gloves, we always wore gloves. With our navy blue uniform, I should have said, we wore brown leather gloves and it was part of your dress, even when you were on leave, you wore that, you had to have your … you should wear your gloves at all time. We had white gloves and the rain affected the white nugget or Kiwi, whatever you used to keep those caps clean. Just the pouring rain, well we just had all this white coming down us, our face and everywhere, we were saturated, but I think we were all so on a high because we had been selected and we had such a wonderful ovation from the crowd, so well, yeah, and while we were in Canberra after that, we used to go to any functions where we knew the Queen or the Prince would be and he would acknowledge us by saluting or waving. Even if we were in the street and his vehicle went by, he would acknowledge us, and that was a great honour we got. Yes, wonderful. I was telling you about divisions. Divisions were every Friday and we had to get dressed in our number 1 uniform and whites for summer and navy blue … and we fell in and we had to march past the Commodore and each section was led … like the gunnery school would be led by the Gunnery Officer, spy school, or the cook's (??0.8) and of course the RAN officer em would … Des Payne would take our parade, our group and the seagulls loved us. You can imagine it, being on Westernport Bay and they were devils. They would land, you had to be always, you know, precise, your stocking seams had to be straight, you didn't have to have the collars of your shirts turned up, your tie had to be right, your hair at the right length, not below your collar. If you had long hair, well that had to be up. Girls platted it or something. Em, that was held every Friday, irrespective. What was the problem with the seagulls? Well, they do leave their droppings don't they. Right. I wondered whether it was that or whether they had landed on the ground when you were trying to walk. Oh no, they usually kept away, it was when they flew over that was the trouble. And of course … you didn't appreciate that. They … after a while, the Band Master, he had been there a while, I cant remember quite when, he put to marching time "All the Nice Girls Love a Sailor" and when Prince Phillip came and em … to present the Queen's colours to the Depot, of course it was a special division, special parade, and well, you can imagine his reaction when the band, the naval band played "All the Nice Girls Love a Sailor" as we marched by. It was, yeah, very funny. What about special occasions on the base? How did you for instance celebrate Christmas and were there other occasions that you had special things. Yes, there were special occasions. When we hadn't been in the service very long, we … eh … King George VI died and we had a special ceremony then. A service for him. And I think that was a very moving time. On Coronation Day, the 2nd June, there were special orders given for the dress in accordance with orders and as liquor was not allowed, there was a special order given that the RANS were allowed 1, 10oz. glass of beer and I think the men were given a quantity of beer. Did you drink yours? I cant remember. I probably did because it would have been such a privilege, that we probably all did, I cant remember. Ok, you were talking about special occasions, any other … ? What about Christmas? Christmas yes, well most went home. People who lived in Tasmania, South Australia, Victoria, New South Wales, they had leave twice a year. In June and Christmas, but West Australians and Queenslanders, North Queenslanders in particular, only had leave once a year when we had 4 weeks and we had a special, in my case, 1 week travelling time, because it took 3 days there and 3 days back. Because we were allowed by train. We were given free travel by train. So there were few people left who were actually duty over the Christmas but, yes, they were special times. They had a special Christmas thing, but we usually had a party before to celebrate … em, you know, the Christmas and going on leave. With the anniversary on the 28th April each year, we had a special, usually a dance and a meal, and that was for remembrance of the first anniversary of the RANS actually commencing in 1941. Right. So that was always a special occasion. Now, you, the RANS was reformed and you joined because of the Korean war. Yes. No, so far nothing you have said has suggested anything about the war. How did the war impact on? Well, possibly not a great deal on us. Only, with my work, I handled the service certificates and there would be some information when I worked in Central Registry, but we knew the ships that were there and you would have people who were drafted from those ships to shore, after … men served only a certain time, they did a draft of so long and then when it was convenient they would be transferred to a land base. So we knew that, there wasn't a great talk about the Korean War. We would see it on the newsreels and there were newsreel theatres where you could go and see things, but it wasn't really until … since I have left the navy that I have really learned more of what … the men never talked very much about it to us. They possibly did amongst themselves, and it has been only through my husband and his friends and friends' husbands and things that much has been discussed about it. And I have found that most … through most wars those men who served really don't talk very much. They don't talk about what they have seen and done. Was there ever any talk of the women going to Korea? No, women, although we … when we signed our papers on enlistment, we could have been sent. They were never, ever sent and later on … the women did go or they … serving in the RANS they did go overseas - of course now they are as of one the men, so they do. You signed on for 4 years? That was the standard time of engagement. And you didn't re-sign on? No, because I was going to be married, and if you were married, you didn't serve. You weren't accepted. Right. And also, if a girl should have got pregnant, well she was automatically discharged and also if anybody was found to be a lesbian, she was also, just quietly, discharged. They would be there one day and gone the next, you know, it was only working within the Confidential Registry that these sort of things would come up. But, it was usually kept quiet, discreet and not made public. Ok, and you married a serviceman? Yes, I married a serviceman. How did you meet? Eh, on weekend leave in Geelong and I was with another girl. We had been going out with a couple of sailors and I just sort of said, let's have a weekend away without the … and don't tell anybody where we are going, and Ailex so kindly mentioned it in the mail office where all the mail was sorted for the Depot. That might be a thing too. Talking about mail. We … our mail used to be free. We would pay a small charge, not the full postage. Anyway, Ailex mentioned to a fellow, oh he comes down there, where are you staying, and she told him. She didn't tell me till we got to Geelong and I said well we are not going to be there at that time, so we kept away from where we were staying for a whole hour and just as we were going through the doors out he came with 2 friends. And amongst them was my husband. And they invited us to a party that night and … I actually went with the other fellow, but it wasn't until some weeks later and he was picking up keys for the signal school that I … and I was coming out of the office that we met again and just sort of used to meet. So, was this common for navy people to be … because you were socialising with other navy people that you would make permanent relationships? What about … how common was it amongst the other women? Yes, it did eventually. Quite a few of the women did marry sailors, often with whom they worked, particularly amongst the telegraphists (??10.4), yes quite a lot married. So, this was only 4 years of your life, but it has had a very long, lasting impression on your life hasn't it? Yes, of course, I think there is something we … it … if you have been in the service there is a camaraderie that cant be found anywhere else. You are all brought down to one level .. well in our day we were all … you learned to live with each other, there was the discipline and I think you had a greater understanding of people's natures and of people, and there was this friendship that lasted, even today. I still am in touch with many girls who I saw, because I spent 3 years in service in Flinders Naval Depot, I saw many girls, I met many girls and I have since met them at reunions and which we hold national reunions, and we have kept at that contact. And you have a RANS Association too. Yes, we have a RANS Association. When did you join that? About, em, I think it was about '61 when I saw an advert for the … they were having a 21st anniversary at "HMAS Lonsdale" and I joined then. And have been a member ever since. I have been a Junior and Senior Vice President, Treasurer and a Committee Member for quite a number of years. Is that at the national or the Victorian? No, that is Victorian and Victorian Association is not … is an association of its own. Some of the ex RANS are sub-sections of the Naval Association, but we have our own straight association. Ok, what sort of things do you do, the RANS Association? In the RANS Association. Well, it is mainly we meet. We help one another, particularly in time of sickenss or death … em … you keep that contact and because it is a national one, you do hear, through newsletters and things about the … and when you go somewhere you have got that meeting, you can go up and meet up with people and find out different people. Em, we do help donate to (??12.9) functions and we donate once a year to different organisations, money we have made throughout the year. It is more a social thing. When the RSL opened up to people who had not been overseas, did you join then? No, I have never joined them. Was that a deliberate decision or just because you were so much involved with the RANS? Well partly a deliberate decision, I wasn't ever really very interested because I was more interested … that is one reason why we didn't join The Naval Association as a sub-section was because they really didn't want the women after the war, and I have just never felt the necessity to belong to it. Do you march on ANZAC Day? Yes, sometimes. With the RANS? With the RANS, only with the RANS, yes. Have you noticed changes in ANZAC Day? Yes, I am finding that more of our young people are coming back and you talk about the Korean war. I have always felt very sorry for the men who served in the Korean war because, to me, it was a forgotten war. We had had the Second World War and they learned that it cost these people wanted to have, to forget it. Times were improving, we had had austerity and things were improving and people didn't want to be reminded and I do feel that it has taken 50 years for the men who served in Korea to have been acknowledged. And you can see that changing in ANZAC Day now? And I can see that, as I say, when those men marched, it wouldn't make any difference, but I can see a difference, and particularly with the Vietnam veterans being accepted, that there has been a big change. The crowds are increasing, they did drop off for some years. When I first marched it was a big … there were big crowds, and then they seemed to drop off, now they seem to be coming back. Do you march into the Shrine, or do you march in a local ..? No, I march in the general Melbourne march on ANZAC Day to the Shrine, yes. And we usually go to lunch afterwards somewhere. Do you watch films and television programs about the wars? Oh yes. Have you ever watched MASH? Yes. I think the peoples idea of Korea is very much determined by MASH. How do you feel about that? Yes, and I think probably … it was nothing like that from what I heard. Em … you know, there was certainly the tragedy of it that is displayed, but the navy during the Korean war was the service that had the least death and injuries, casualties. What is your best memory of your time in the RANS? My best memory? Oh, that is very difficult because there are lots of happy memories. You don't want to pick one? No, I'd rather not pick one. Do you have any bad memories? No, not really, no. The only, I suppose unusual memories was when I had to escort, I had to attend with the regulators and as they went through a girl who had deserted. Her possessions, that was not a very pleasant experience, but no I think on the whole, we grouched and we didn't like, you know, being confined and all this, that went very much against the grain at times because we were grown women, many of our friends had married and as I say, a lot of the women that were with me were a lot older. And I did say at the beginning about 4 of us. We were there, we em, we didn't know but they, we were part of a group of girls that were interviewed for the first OTC. It was a very … a very large group that … the first OTC because they had to get some officers you see. Unfortunately I was too immature and I wasn't chosen, but was very honoured to have been part of that. But I wasn't the only one who wasn't honoured, but em … the 3 girls, other 3 girls were, although they weren't successful through the OTC. They weren't made officers, but even although they did the OTC, they weren't always chosen, and there were only a select few chosen. So you must have felt really quite special. Yes, and I think the women as a whole were treated very special in our day. And I have only one thing to say, there was … when I first went to my first position I reported to Captain's Office, the PO there said to me in quite strong language I was now in the navy in a man's world and that's what I had to expect. I could go back and tell … and cry to Ma'am RAN if I wanted to. And the worst thing he ever did because it put my back up and I was determined to prove to him that a woman could do as good a job as any man. And you did? I hope so. I managed to make Petty Officer within 4 years, so I think that was very good. I sat the exams and was able to pass and I was recommended. You had to be recommended, so I think we did prove that we could do a man's job, because look at the women today.
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Victorians at War - Oral History Project